Episode 296: Nathan Dunlap The Chuck E. Cheese Murders

Note: Nathan Dunlap was calling from inside the Colorado State Penitentiary over a couple of days and several 20 minute calls.

Susan Ruth: Hey humans. How is it going? Susan Ruth, here. Thanks for listening to another episode of Hey Human Podcast. This is episode 296. I had a conversation with Nathan Dunlap. On December 14th, 1993, a 19-year-old Nathan Dunlap entered a Chuck E. Cheese in Aurora, Colorado. He ordered some food. He played a video game. Then he went into the bathroom where he hid until closing. After the Chuck E. Cheese had closed, he came out and found several people working and he murdered them. His victims included Sylvia Crowell, 19, Ben Grant, 17, Colleen O’Connor, 17, and store manager Marge Kohlberg, 50. He also found Bobby Stephens, 20, and shot him in the jaw. Bobby survived by playing dead and escaped. Nathan was apprehended and eventually found guilty of four counts of first-degree murder, attempted murder, and other charges. He was sentenced to death by lethal injection. Over time, his execution date was postponed and eventually commuted to life without parole once Colorado decided that the death penalty was unconstitutional, especially in regards to teenagers.

Nathan and I talked over a few days over several phone calls. The recording, of course, is not going to be as good as possible because it's hard to do through a phone call. They don't have access to Zoom, or computers, or FaceTime, or anything like that. Bear with me on that. I find the conversation really interesting. Nathan talks about who he is now compared to who he was then. We talk about mental illness and drug addiction, victims' rights.

As I said, this happened over a couple of days because after the first set of interviews that really went on in 20-minute bursts because they're only allowed to use the payphone for a certain amount of time, there were still a lot of questions I had that weren't answered. I emailed Nathan through the Colorado State Penitentiary email system. He agreed to do another follow-up. I said, "Look, I've got these other questions for you regarding remorse and families of the victims and things like that that I didn't feel were being answered perhaps in the first section of conversations."

There may be moments where we repeat ourselves and that's why. I personally don't believe in the death penalty. I don't think it is a deterrent. I think it's extraordinarily costly. I also think that kids who commit violent crimes, that to put them in prison for their entire lifetime is, for me, at least, insane. I think that who people are at 19 is not who they will become at 40 or 50 or whatever.

I feel like in some cases, it's easy to just decide someone is a monster. Perhaps in some cases, like a Ted Bundy, for example, a monster does lurk right on the surface. I think people are complicated. In order to talk to people who have committed heinous acts, I have to remember that I myself am capable of these acts. I've never met a person who hasn't said, “I wish they were dead,” or have a moment on the freeway where you just want to gun somebody off the road or just casual thoughts that are the monsters lurking within, just showing themselves a little bit.

That's a gross generalization, but it gets to my point that I think it's quite easy for us to look at certain people and say, "Oh, that person isn't me. They're nothing like me. Therefore, I condemn them to whatever thing is, whatever the condemnation is." The fact of the matter is, they're not that much different. We are animals at best. Sure, we grew up with moralities, and religion, and ethics, and all that kind of stuff but those are all real slippery, aren't they? A lot of gray in there about what a person justifies in one case and not in another.

That's for me why it's so important to have these kinds of conversations. Again, that idea of growth. Ted Bundy being a great example. I don't know that that guy had anywhere to go but down. There was clearly a psychopath. I don't know enough about psychopaths to be able to comment on whether it's a redeemable quality. We all know there are plenty of sociopaths in power functioning just fine in society. I don't think it's healthy for us as humans to casually disregard something as binary. It doesn't serve anything or anyone. I think it creates a place where we can't see our own stuff, our own darkness, our own foibles, our own lies, our own truths. We're so busy pointing fingers at others who are rightfully guilty in many cases but I don't know, it's like they become the-- I don't know what I'm trying to say. I know how I feel. It's hard to articulate. I think the bottom line is, I want to know more about who I am by talking to people who have done things that I think if, under certain circumstance, I could be that person. Does that even make sense? I hope it does.

Depending on how I was raised, depending on whether or not I'm on drugs, depending on whether or not I'm mentally ill, or have been severely abused or whatever, and I'm not saying any of those things are excuses, because absolutely not an excuse. Not an excuse. But it does create an understanding. It's like, I get it. I get why these people turn out the way they do or why certain people behave a certain way. Not everyone is in complete control of their being. In fact, many people aren't.

I'm just talking out loud here for you as I try and just figure out myself what I think about humans, what we do, why we do it, the pain we're in, the pain we inflict, the purpose of it all. I get the eye-for-an-eye ideology but I don't think that it works. Murdering one person versus another doesn't solve anything. Also, something I think about too is the idea of the executioners. How many murders they've committed, sanctioned, of course, by the government, but death takes its toll no matter which direction you look.

I think that the death penalty is disproportionate to people of color. There's a whole lot of thoughts I have on the matter but I really wanted to have a conversation with Nathan. I learned about him through Ellis Armistead who is a private investigator who is somebody I interviewed on this show. Ellis and Nathan have maintained correspondence throughout the years. Ellis mentioned to me that Nathan has grown as a man. He spent a majority of his life in prison. He might be an interesting person to talk to.

Of course, absolutely, I said yes. Thank you to Ellis for helping to facilitate me connecting with Nathan. Thank you to Nathan, as well, for taking the time to talk with me. Although, as Nathan would put it, all he has is time. I still appreciate it. I do believe that Nathan was honest with me in his thoughts and feelings. It would be interesting to have talked to a 19-year-old Nathan. I watched a lot of video and read a lot of articles. It sounds like who he was then is just a totally different person.

It's a complicated issue. Since I'm not a person that really, I don't see things in black and white, I don't see things as binary, it's intriguing to me to have these kinds of conversations and I hope that you find them intriguing as well. I don't know what else to say about that. I'm sure this episode might cause a stir for some people. There were obviously several lives lost tragically and lives altered forever. For the families of the victims, it's just incomprehensible how they tried to go on with their lives knowing that their loved ones were no longer around. Okay. Well, that's heavy.

Let's get into the other stuff. The usual suspects of the show, which seem-- You know, it's hard to pivot and not feel gross a little bit, but pivot I must. Hey Human Podcast can be found on social media under Instagram and Facebook. My personal social media, SusanRuthism is on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram. You can email me, [email protected]. I will do my best to answer every single email in a timely fashion. I would love to hear from you, whether this episode, for example, pisses you off, or you found it interesting or whatever, I'd love to hear your thoughts. Rate, and review Hey Human on iTunes or wherever you get your podcast. Please subscribe. That's important, too.

If you want to sign up for my mailing list or check out other things that I do, go to susanruth.com. I do music and art and all sorts of fun things. I've also been interviewed a few times and those interviews are up there on the susanruth.com site. heyhumanpodcast.com is where you will find everything about this show. You can check out the LINKS page. Every episode has a pile of links that I find and put together to make things easier for you to learn more about the person I'm talking with and the things that we reference in the show. Definitely, check that out. I think that's about it for the usual stuff.

I want to mention a show that I watched this week, that I found absolutely delightful. It's called How To with John Wilson. I highly recommend it. It's weird and so funny and awkward and beautiful and genius really, in my humble opinion. If you haven't checked that out, definitely go find that How To with John Wilson. Okay. I think that's about all that stuff. Let's get into this episode. Thank you for listening. Thank you for being a part of this and for getting the word out and for really hanging in there even if you don't agree with some of the people that I've interviewed, or my thoughts, or whatever. The fact that you're listening and that you are open-minded enough to at least hear what is being said. You don't have to agree with it. I mean, my God, that's certainly the truth, but thank you for sticking with me and checking things out. Stay well out there. Be safe out there. Take care of each other. Be kind. All right. Here we go.

[phone ringing]

Speaker 2: Global Tel Link has a collect call for you. Except for approved attorney calls, this call may be monitored or recorded. Global Tel Link prepaid call from?

Nathan Dunlap: Nathan Dunlap.

Speaker 2: An inmate at a Colorado Correctional Facility. To accept this call, press five now. To decline this call-- Thank you for using Global Tel Link.

Nathan: Hello. Did I call a little early or are you good?

Susan: It was a couple minutes early, but you know what? It's fine. I appreciate you calling. Thank you.

Nathan: Yes, no problem.

Susan:Are you ready to begin?

Nathan: Yes.

Susan:Nathan Dunlap. Welcome to Hey Human. You're in Colorado, correct?

Nathan: Yes, I'm in Colorado. Colorado State Penitentiary.

Susan:How long have you been there?

Nathan: Oh God [chuckles] let's see. I first arrived in May, 1996. I left, let's see, some time, I can't remember exactly when, but sometime in 2011, I went to Sterling Correctional Facility, which is in Colorado. Then I returned to CSP in like September, October of 2015. I think it was and I've been here since.

Susan:The whole of your life, really.

Nathan: Yes. I've spent more time in prison than I have on streets. [chuckles]

Susan:Let's go back. I usually start these conversations with childhood. Tell me about your upbringing.

Nathan: Okay. I was born in Wahkeegen in Illinois, but my really earliest memories are living in Memphis, Tennessee. That's my earliest memories. My mom's husband worked for Federal Express. He actually used to be a teacher. He started off as a teacher and then he worked for Federal Express. With that job with Federal Express we got transferred a lot. We went to move - Tennessee to Michigan. I lived in Michigan for, I think about a year and a half, two years. Then I moved out here to Colorado during the summer, right before my fifth grade school year. Colorado since fifth grade.

Susan: Were they good parents, bad parents? Did you get along with them?

Nathan: There's no such thing as a perfect parent. All parents make mistakes. [chuckles] When you hear about other people's parents, you're like, oh, those parents are real good or those parents real bad and stuff like that. I've listened to other kids' conversations about talking about their parents and stuff. I've heard people with parents who are worse than mine. I've heard people with parents who I can argue are better than mine. But at the same time, it's like even those parents may not be better than mine.

Were they the type of parents that I needed? Could they have raised me and my siblings [better]? For me, my mom was as good as a parent I think she could be. I have no complaints. She made mistakes but overall, I have no complaints. As far as her husband goes, he was good up until a point, and then he became abusive towards me. Of course, I learned some other stuff about him that just turned me away from him. It's just unacceptable for me.

Susan: Like what?

Nathan: I learned that he sexually abused my sister.

Susan:Yes.

Nathan: That's just a no-no for me.

Susan:Yes, I mean, that would definitely for sure. Did your mom stay married to him?

Nathan: Yes. Long-story short. My mom didn't find out about the abuse he did on me and my sister until, gosh, I was, I think 17 years old or something like that. I guess you could say they separated at that point in time and then I caught my case. When I caught my case, I actually told her, ''Go back to him.'' They were together until they died or until he died or whatever. He died first and then she died a year later.

Susan: Why did you tell her to go back to him?

Nathan: In my opinion, she didn't have anybody to take care of her. She was alone. Once I got arrested, it was like, who was going to take of her when she got older and I didn't want her to be alone. I know my sister was already living on her own. My brother was about to go off to college and everything. I was going through my case. I'd been arrested so I was going through my case. I just didn't want her to be alone. He loved her and everything like that and she's a parent. I think when you're a parent, your marriage comes second, your children come first in some cases. I could be wrong, but I don't think she left him because she didn't love him anymore or because he had mistreated her or anything like that. She left him because he had mistreated her children. We (siblings) were not in the picture. I was okay with it. She went back to him.

Susan: Do your siblings come to visit you in prison?

Nathan: My brother. I think he came to visit me a couple of times when I was in the county. I've seen him once since I've been incarcerated because he wanted to go to college and moved out of state. My sister, she used to visit me a lot when I was in the county. After my case was over and done with, she moved out of state. She's visited me once since I've been in CDoC (California Department of Corrections). That's it for that.

Susan: Do the people that you're incarcerated with then, did they become more family over time?

Nathan: No, no. I would never. I probably developed close friendships with maybe two or three guys since I've been incarcerated, but I would never consider any of these guys, with exception maybe the three I befriended. Nobody else I had to come close of being well-considered family or secondary family or whatever like that.

Susan: Sure. I read that your mom had dealt with a lot of mental illness issues.

Nathan: For the longest of times, I did not believe in mental illness. As a matter of fact, prior to 1997, I didn't think there was any such thing as mental illness. I thought with…the only mental illness that I believed in, so to speak, was schizophrenia.

That was the only thing I kind of believed in. When I say I believe in schizophrenia, that's not the point. I actually knew what schizophrenia was, but that's the closest thing that you know, I believe as far as mental illness. I thought that was crazy. You were crazy if you have schizophrenia, anything outside of that, I didn't believe in. I didn't believe in depression.

If you were depressed, well then go eat some ice cream and get happy. [chuckles] That's how I felt. You had control, you had control over it. That's how I felt about mental illness up to 1997. I witnessed my mom get hospitalized two or three different cases when I was growing up. Yes, she behaved differently. She acted weird. She has bipolar disorder.

So I was younger, I can remember, I remember she was depressed. Why you crying? It didn't make sense to me, and so even back then, I started having this resentment of just get over it, make yourself happy you have control over it. Then, let's see, when I was younger, she got hospitalized, but I didn't really see the effects.

I just remember early in the morning she wanted to horseplay. Well, actually I thought she was trying to horseplay, but in actuality, I learned later on, years later, that what she was really trying, was to hurt me, trying to kill me. I was happy that she was horseplaying with us because she was playing with us. It was great.

Susan: What did she attempt to do?

Nathan: She picked me up by my feet and was walking down the steps, and as she was walking down the steps, she was bouncing me off my head and she was trying to break my neck. And like, I didn't know it. I just thought it was just fun [chuckles] and then my mom was, I think...

she was fat. She, she's fat. She weighed… I was a kid. I was probably in the second grade, maybe. She sat on top of me, I was laying on my back and she sat on top of me, straddled me. She was bouncing up and down on my stomach and chest, and with that much weight, she should have broke something, but she didn't. She did single me out, so to speak. I still thought that she was wrestling with me, but she was actually trying to hurt me. As a result of her, my-- I guess she said some other things to her husband, which made him realize something was wrong with her. He got her hospitalized. When I was a kid, when that happened, all I did was to wake up. She's not there she'd been in the hospital, and I was told that she had a nervous breakdown later on. I didn't understand any of this stuff. I was a kid, so the way I look at, if something's wrong with you...I'm looking for something physical. I didn't understand mental. I didn't see nothing wrong with her, so why are you (was she) moving slow? Why is this, that and the other? That's just where my head was at when it come to mental illness.

Susan: She was singling you out above your siblings?

Nathan: Right? Yes. It was like, yes, she was singling (me out). She was playing with all of us, but she was directing more of her stuff towards me. I watched my mom look me dead in the eye and swear up and down that this picture of this white baby was me. I'm black by the way. (laughs). You could look at my baby pictures - there’s no way you can mistake me for a white baby. I watched with my mom and… (she'd look me) in the eye and swear up and down that I was this little red menace devil with the horns and everything. I could see in my mom, when I looked her in the eye, she was saying, “Get away from me Devil.” That's what she saw. She really saw me as this little red creature with horns and a tail and everything. Even though I saw this with my own eyes, I believed she had control as far as to not to see me that way.

Susan: This is going to be a really intense question, but I am curious. The other day I was having breakfast with a friend of mine, and a woman and walked by who clearly had schizophrenia. She was very upset and talking outloud and, and my friend and I had a conversation about how it seems that sometimes the people that have severe mental illness, where they're hearing voices. What if they're hearing messages somewhere where we can't hear them and it's driven them insane because, I can't imagine what that's like to be witness to so many voices that, what if your mom had some sort of precognition of the events that were going to transpire in… like she knew somehow then that in December of 1993, you were going to do this thing, and so in that weird schism of time and space and mental illness, what if she saw something?

Nathan:Well, no, no, no, I can't, no, I can't. I can't buy that one. I don't see that, because when she was hallucinating, she was hallucinating. And her hallucinations were just, I don't know what she was really hearing or seeing.

Susan:Interesting. Did you ever ask her later on in life or it was that just something that became unspoken?

Nathan: No, I didn't learn about any of this. As far as her singling me out, and all this kind of stuff. I didn't learn any of this until I was incarcerated. There was...basically they were trying to figure out all mitigation stuff at my trial and all this stuff. Trying to figure out how I came out the way I came out, and stuff like that, and one thing they focus on is abuse and stuff like that. By the time stuff came out I figured out that I had a mental disorder, stuff like that, so this is important (to them) to try to make the links and stuff through my mental disorder and my mom’s mental disorder.

Susan:What disorders are you diagnosed with?

Nathan: Oh, I have bipolar disorder, like my mother.

Susan:Okay. I imagine that they keep that regulated while you're incarcerated?

Nathan: Funny story. I didn't, like I said, they didn't start treating me for my bipolar disorder until, I think 2000, 2001. Come to find out they knew I had to have this disorder, but they didn't want to treat me for it, because they felt by diagnosing me and treating me for it, it would help my legal matters.

Susan: Oh, interesting.

Nathan: It was just all messed up.

Susan:That is messed up. That's really messed up. On the night that everything went down and you killed those people do you think that you were out of your mind?

Nathan:There's no question. It took me years to figure this out and learn this, but I now know that yes, I was in the midst of a manic episode at the time of my arrest. I had been experiencing a manic episode probably a month or two… I started to experience the manic episode probably about a month or two before I got arrested.

And slowly but surely it just got worse and worse and probably I got arrested and then I wound up, I don't know, about a week or two after I had got arrested, I wound up going into a depression episode. Then two or three weeks after that, I wound up going into a manic episode again, but this time I went from just a pure manic episode to a manic episode with psychotic features. I wound up in state hospital. I got arrested December 1993. I wound up in the state hospital in February of 1994. I think it was, I believed I’m manic was the first I had, I’d had more before that.

As far as, since I was 19 years old, my first manic episode probably started in, probably around October, maybe a month before then, and that manic episode lasted from October until probably January, January of 1994. I say January, January 1994. When I say October, October 1993 to about January 1994, I had a manic episode. I was in a midst of a manic episode and then I experienced a depressed episode for about two or three weeks. Then immediately went to a manic episode and then that manic episode evolved into a manic episode with psychotic features.

That happened around February, and so in February of 1994, I left for the state hospital and I was there until I think July or something like that. Then finally I left in July. I was basically returned back to normal, and then in, I don't know, October 1997 had another manic episode with psychotic features and that all lasted, I don't know, three or four months or something like that.

Susan:Nobody around you recognized this to try and get you help?

Nathan: Well the thing, my mom in, to her, and again I found this later on down the road, but my mom suspected, or knew that I was manic, when I was on the streets prior to my arrest, unfortunately, because of how I feel about mental disorder, I didn't believe, I had a mental disorder, all that good stuff. She knew she couldn't talk to me about it. She knew she couldn't make me believe that I had the disorder.

What she thought was that my symptoms would be similar to hers, but it turned out they didn't. When I wound up in the state hospital, my mom, again, she was like, she went to the state doctor, told them what was wrong with me and stuff like that. State doctors are like, no, my mom was describing her symptoms and stuff like that. In the end it was discovered, that they knew what was wrong with me. They knew what was wrong with me, they just didn't want to diagnose me, because it would help out my case.

Having a mental illness would be mitigation in my case. In the end, it came out. That's what it was. Even though I experienced these hallucinations and stuff like that, when I got out of state hospital, my mom tried to tell me what was wrong with me.

I was in denial about it and I blamed, I don’t know, I must have just got stressed out, even though I didn't believe that myself. That's what I just told myself. I was like, "I do not want to be like my mother. I did not want to have a mental illness." My attorneys were appointed to represent me for my hearing. I told him. I said, "Look, something's wrong. I'll talk to whatever doctor you want me to talk to."

They went and got doctors and come check me out, and everything. They came back, "He has bipolar." I went to my hearing and listened to what everybody had to say. Then what happened is, they wanted to put me on medication. The funny thing about that, I think the only reason why they put me on medication was because I had suicide attempts.

In this particular facility, it's hard to watch you. I think the only reason why they put me on medication was so maybe if I died, they could say they were treating me for depression. I think that they were just trying to save their ass. I can't remember the name the drugs, but SSRIs

Susan: Yes, sure. Inhibitors.

Nathan: And Prozac. Anyway, they had me on those for almost a year, and then I stopped taking them without them knowing. Every three months or something, they'd pull you in to check your medication and stuff like that, to see how you're doing. I went in, talked to the doctor, and everything. He tells me I'm doing fine. He goes through his little checklist and everything, lets me know I'm doing okay. I tell him, I'm doing okay. He's like, "I want to continue the medication." I'm like, "I haven't been taking the medication." He's like, "What?" I said, "Yes, I haven't been taking the medication--"

Susan:How did you get around it? Don't they watch you take it?

Nathan:Yes and no.

Susan:Were you suicidal as a teenager too?

Nathan: Yes, I did try a couple times when I was a kid, when I was juvenile. Seventh and eighth grade, I tried a couple of times.

Susan:In December of '93 when you went into the Chuck E. Cheese and you were having a manic episode with psychotic ideations, you're not in your right--

Nathan: No, no. No. No, no. I did not have psychotic features in 1993. I was just manic.

Susan:What do you think was the thing then that pushed you into committing the crimes?

Nathan: Mainly it caused you to think and feel a certain way. For me, it had me feeling like I was this gangster, this thug. About a month before the crimes at Chuck E. Cheese, me and some of these guys I hung around with got robbed. We got robbed by the homeboys of the guys' I was hanging around with’s friend.

I learned that their friend had lied about something. He was not trying to help us get our stuff back from his homies, or whatever. It was my intention to go cause this guy's death. Somehow I got it in my head that, if I shot their homeboy, I was going to need to be able, need to shoot my homies, too, if they [my homies] got upset with what I was doing. Somehow it got in my head that, I needed to test myself. I need to go shoot somebody else to see if I had a, I guess, the heart or whatever to shoot my own homeboys. That's how Chuck E. Cheese evolved. That's how it came about. If I can do Chuck E. Cheese, then I could shoot my homeboys if necessary.

Susan: Now that you are medicated the way you are, and regulated the way you are, and all that kind of stuff, have you attempted to, or I don't know what the rules are or if you would even do that, but to reach out to the families of the people you killed?

Nathan: No, because the way that works or whatever, the victims' family members have to be wanting to talk to you. They have to initiate the contact.

Susan:Would you want them to?

Nathan: Yes. I would love to talk to them. I would love to talk to them, because the story that they have, is just incorrect. When I say I would love to talk to them, it's more in the sense of, I would like to explain to them what really happened. Maybe it would help them.

I want to explain for what really happened and why. Me, personally, I think it would help them heal and stuff like that, but who am I? Maybe they just don't want do that. I can't force myself or force my opinions and beliefs on somebody else, but for me, I'm open to talking to anybody.

What I did was messed up. It was messed up. I don't know, everybody's different. Some people, they want to know what happened and why and all that good stuff, and some people don’t. They just want to just cool out.

Susan: How have you come to terms with everything? How do you deal with the fact that you took four lives and hurt somebody?

Nathan: One, when I found I had bipolar and the connection it had to what I had done, it was like a relief for me. For me, it was like, "Okay, I'm not this monster." At first, for a while, I was running around thinking I was this monster and I had conflicting feelings. I was convincing myself that, "Okay, I must be this, I must be this monster. I must have this evil in me that comes out every now and again.” That I can somehow control or can't control or whatever.

Now I know why I did what I did. I understand it. That's the first step for me. To be honest, I really don't know if I have dealt with it. I just try not to think about it. I just try not to think about it because I think, maybe when I actually think about what I've done, it's going to like really hurt. I think mentally, I'm trying to avoid thinking about it and block it out and stuff like that.

Susan:You don't think that thinking about it and talking about it will bring a healing in a way? Obviously, you can't bring back the peo--

Nathan: For me?

Susan:Yeah.

Nathan: No, because I'm not dealing with it in an emotional sense. I'm not dealing with it, I don’t know how to explain it…

Susan: But it still lives in you. It's still in you.

Nathan: Yes, I agree with you on that. I guess, I got a good barrier right now. Maybe one day, that barrier's going to break and then I'll-- I've had this conversation with my mom and a few of my friends and stuff like that. Right now, I'm not ready to deal with it. I just don't talk about it at all. I just don't deal with it. I'm not trying to.

I think part of it has to do with the fact that where I'm at. I'm not in a place where, I guess you could be emotional or whatever, or you even could have a place where you can really heal and be open or something about it. I just don't deal with it plain and simple. Simple as that.

Susan: You’re saying you've pushed down the feelings. You don't think about it because to you, you feel like that person who committed those crimes was a different person from who you are today. And on many levels, I completely understand that. And again, it's that problem—

Nathan: Hold on, hold on…

Susan: Wait. Wait, let me finish really quick. I understand that on one level, because just sentencing basically children to death, or to life imprisonment, when they haven't even fully formed as human beings, their brain's not even formed all that stuff -- those are different people.

Who I was at 19, is a million miles away from who I am now. I didn't murder anyone, but still, the concept is there. For you over the years, you've spent now more time in prison than not in prison, that, I cannot imagine that the remorse hasn't come up and that feeling. Even though you want to be like, "That was somebody else."

How do you mitigate that pain, because you seem like, that’s the thing, you seem like a logical, thoughtful human being. And logical, thoughtful human beings have empathy. It's hard for me to believe that you were so without that.

Nathan: Okay, first, let me explain something, my 19-year-old self would never have committed this crime. My 19 “normal self” would never have committed this crime. My 19-year-old self with a mental illness, would commit this crime and did commit this crime.

I'm 47 years old right now. My 47-year-old self would never have committed that crime. It just wouldn't have happened. Normal self. If I am manic at 47 right now, if I'm manic, then it is possible that I can commit that crime, because it's the mania that has me thinking. It's not myself, me personally. It's the mania that has me thinking just off-the-wall stuff.

It has me prepared to go do stuff that I normally would not do. Now, when I was 19 and committing crime, I experienced remorse. Although I experienced remorse and regret in the middle of committing the crime, but I was able to snap out of it, so to speak, and go on and continue to commit the crime. Within, I don't know, 5 or 10 minutes after I committed the crime, I felt remorse again.

I told myself, "No, this isn't right. This is not the correct kind of emotion you're supposed to have experienced. You're committing premeditated murder. Remorse is not an emotion you're supposed to experience when you do something like that."

And I was manic at the time, so I think the mania actually helped, "You are a gangster, you're supposed to think this way. So don’t, get off that remorse trip." Then the mania went away, sometime after I was arrested, and the remorse came in at that time. That's when I was experiencing anger and stuff like that, so I was able to hide.

Along with the anger and because I believed if, "You committed premeditated murder, you can't be remorseful." Some would say, I convinced myself. Like you say, because I was experiencing anger from other people, it was easier for me to hide the remorse and forget about the remorse.

Susan: What about 47 year old you?

Nathan:Right

Susan: Because now, I'm talking with you now, what does that person feel?

Nathan: Throughout time, leading up to 47, is I would experience remorse every now and again. And eventually what happened is that…what was happening was, I was experiencing remorse, but at the same time, I was-- I'd say about 2000, I was experiencing remorse, but I was still experiencing anger and stuff like that.

Somebody would say something, I'd be feeling bad about something I did. I was feeling bad about what I did, but then I hear somebody say something and I'd be like, "Oh, forget them or whatever. I'm glad I did," or worse, or something like that.

For me, personally, I was like, "You know what, I'm tired of hating." Because that's what it boiled down to, always hating people. I was tired of hating, so I just decided to stop. That started my journey, as far as just saying, "Okay, look, deal with your remorseful feelings." Then, around the same time that happened, that's also when I found out that I had bipolar and how it works and stuff.

Bipolar explained why I was having these conflicting feelings of, one minute I'm angry and not remorseful, and another minute I am remorseful. It also explained to me how, to me, it explained to me how I could commit premeditated murder, but then feel remorseful about it.

Susan: I just want to make sure I'm getting this clear, so what you're saying is, now that you're 47-year-old you, and you have an understanding of the mental illness, that you have set aside the anger for people being angry with you, and now you are capable of the empathy and the remorse and understanding that the victim's families are also victims?

Nathan: Yes, and they have every right to be angry and express their anger and be hateful towards me.

Susan:When the governor said. “no more death row,” and you were taken off of death row, and life-without-parole was the replacement, that how angry the victim's families were, that they felt that justice wasn't being served. It's interesting because you also said, "A life in prison is its own hellscape." In that regard, it's a worse punishment to you than death.

Nathan: From day one, I've never been afraid of the death penalty. I'm more afraid of a life sentence. I don't want to die in-- I don't want life sentence. I don't understand this concept of doing a life sentence. I don't understand that. I just don't understand it. I don't get it. I don't get it.

Susan:You would rather be put to death than spend your life in prison?

Nathan: I'd rather die than spend the rest of my life in prison.

Susan: Okay.

Nathan: I'm willing to let them execute me. That's how I feel about it.

Susan: Do you think you'll take your own life while you're in there?

Nathan: I have no idea. I have no idea.

Susan: And your sentence was death plus 108 years?

Nathan: Yes. Plus another 75 years for another robbery case.

Susan: For a robbery case?

Nathan: Yes. They manufactured a robbery conviction for me, so they could use that to enhance my sentence, to give me the death penalty. I got arrested for the Chuck E. Cheese case. It was about, I think about a year after my arrest, they charged me in connection with a robbery case in some other place. For the purpose that they wanted to use that robbery case as an aggravating factor.

Susan: Had you committed that crime?

Nathan: No, I did not.

Susan:Did you admit your guilt for the Chuck E. Cheese murders?

Nathan: No. No. I had not admitted my guilt for Chuck E. Cheese.

Susan: How come?

Nathan: Uh, because I was trying to go home.

Susan: Even though you knew you had done it?

Nathan: Yes, correct.

Susan:If you could go back in time, at what age would you go back? I'm imagining that you're with your right mind now and you would say, "Oh, I'd go back and tell the 19 year old, not to walk into that Chuck E. Cheese." If you were to go back, where do you think the first place you would go to talk to yourself?

Nathan: For me truthfully, I would actually have to go back-- If I had to go back in time-- The specific issue is I didn't believe I was mentally ill. I would have to go back to right before, not even right immediately before, but I have to go back to, probably a month or two before the crimes at Chuck E. Cheese. Because there's a moment in November where I found myself saying to myself, "Nathan, what are you doing? You're doing what you said you would never do."

When I did my juvenile stuff, because it turns out I was manic when I was a juvenile, it was same kind of thinking and everything. I return to normal and everything like that.

I was like, "I'll never do this again. This isn't the way I want to go and stuff like that." Right before Chuck E. Cheese, I started doing some of that same behavior. I found myself asking myself, "Nathan what are you doing here? You're doing the stuff you said you'd never do." If I can come back at that moment and say, "Nathan, the reason why you're doing the stuff you're doing, is because you have bipolar and this is what's going on." I would have listened. I think I would've listened. I would have listened. I think I would've listened.

That's been big for me. If I had gotten help-- When I say gotten help, it wasn't that somebody had offered or hadn't, it wasn't that somebody hadn't offered me help. It was just that had I, me personally, made me say, "Okay, something's wrong. I need to get help."

Had I made that choice, back when I was, right before leading up to Chuck E. Cheese, or even-- My mom first told me, she thought I had a bipolar when I was in the seventh, eighth grade. I refused to believe it then but had I listened and gotten help, then Chuck E. Cheese would've never happened. If I had gotten help early enough, then even the robberies I committed as a juvenile would never have happened.

Susan: Do you believe in the death penalty, yourself? I know that's a really weird question to ask somebody that's in prison and had received the death penalty, but I am curious.

Nathan: Yes and no. Let me explain. My natural instinct is if you do something to me or one of mines, I want to do something to you. That's my gut reaction. That's just how I am. You kill one of mines or rape one of mines, or do something, yes, my gut reaction is to want to go do something to you, including kill you or whatever. That's my gut reaction. If my gut feeling is to go out and murder somebody for murdering one of mines, then a law-abiding citizen should have that same avenue.

The idea of having the death penalty is, I guess, okay with me. The way they're going about doing it and people's attitude about it is off. I know for a fact that me wanting to get revenge and stuff like that, I know it's wrong. It is wrong, plain and simple. Even though it's legal, it's still wrong to go after somebody and give them the death penalty. You can't simply say that, "I'm an evil guy," and thinking of yourself as a normal person because you're seeking that penalty. You can't have it both ways.

Another thing is that they talk about premeditation and stuff. That what I did is pre-meditated murder and so evil and disgusting, and all this stuff. Well, shit, the thought and the whole thing that comes with the death penalty, that's so pre-meditated, it's not even funny. That shit to me? That's even more sick than what anybody else can do as far as pre-meditated murder goes. Another thing is, the process in which they seek the death penalty is flawed.

Susan: Mmmmm

Nathan: For that reason right there, you can go, "There's a problem with that." If they can fix it so it's fair, so to speak, then okay. At the same time, when you say if you fix this where it is fair, so to speak, which I don’t think they can ever do, but if they fix it so it's fair, then you say, "Okay." Still, you've got to recognize that you're no better than the person you're trying to execute because you're doing the same exact thing that they just did.

I don't want to hear you talking about how much of a good person you are, how much of a Christian you are. No, you're just as evil as the person that you're trying to kill, as far as I'm concerned.

Susan: Were you raised religious, or do you have that now?

Nathan: No. I was raised a Baptist, I was raised Baptist. I consider myself Christian.

Susan:Do you practice while you're incarcerated?

Nathan: I practice the same way I practiced when I was on the streets. I wasn't into reading the bible and stuff like that when I was on the streets, I attended services when I was on the streets, but the older I got, the less services I attended. I grew up in the church, I went to church every Sunday. Bible study and everything, I did that all the way up until, gosh, I was a teenager. I got kind of burnt out. For me, I got the gist of the religion and you know,… I

Susan:Let's talk about life in lockup. Tell me… what's your day-to-day like?

Nathan: Well now, I work four days a week for about six hours in the kitchen. I cook two days and the other two days, I worked in a diet role where I just prepare, I basically just put food in the tray for people who are on special diets for religious reasons, medical reasons, or something like that. Other than that, [laughs], nothing. I get yard time, I get gym time. To me, that's just the most boring waste of my time. [laughs]

Susan: Do you read? Do you go to the library there?

Nathan:I hate reading so reading is not [laughs]…I've hated reading since I was a kid. Every now and again, I'll come across something I'd like to read. Right now, I like “Star Wars” so I'm reading all the “Star Wars” books. I got about 10 more books to read and I'll be done with that.

Susan: Why do you hate reading?

Nathan: Just, as a kid I hate reading. I know how to read and everything like that. [laughs] It's just not something I like doing, even though I know I should. I know I should do it because I know it's educational and it's a good way to learn things, but I just don't like doing it.

Susan: I know that you're not getting out. We know this. If you were to get out tomorrow, what would be the first thing you'd do?

Nathan: Just go visit family and friends. Just go visit family, friends, hang out with family friends. After that, go find a job. [laughs] Just find something that's going to be productive and try to make up for-- Do something that's going to try to make up for what I did.

Susan: Do you mean like volunteering?

Nathan: No, just try to work within the system, restorative justice, like try to do something within that area right there.

Susan: You said that you don't really know a whole lot of… you keep to yourself. Do you have a couple of close friends?

Nathan: I would not call an incarcerated person a close friend, but they're the closest-- I've got a few guys I'm close to but…

Susan:Why would you not say that they are?

Nathan: Because for me to say somebody is my friend, it means a lot. It just means a lot. I don't know how to explain it to you. It's one of those things where if you're my friend, you understand what it means to be my friend. Right now, I just can't. This is a penitentiary. I just haven't established that kind of relationship with anybody incarcerated yet, where I would say that they're my friends.

Susan: Do you get along with the guards?

Nathan: Yes. I mean, they're here. [laughs] As long as they don't bother me, I'm cool, I'm fine. I'm not a hate person, or whatever. To me, this is life in the sense of there are people on the streets you got to deal with. It's the same thing here, I got to deal with people. I wasn't at my door talking to everybody. I'm a very asocial person, so I'm okay with being alone. [laughs] Some people need company and some people don't. I don't need company.

Susan:That's probably kept you sane in prison, I'm assuming, especially in isolation?

Nathan: Yes, I think that's why one reason why I was able to be okay.

Susan: Do you remember the moment that you got sentenced?

Nathan: The biggest thing that sticks out (about) my sentencing--. It was what it was. What had me going was, the district attorney was basically talking shit, in my opinion. He said I malingered my stay at the hospital. That was just ridiculous. That was just like, “Oh really? Okay, right." Unfortunately, the victim’s families were there, and unfortunately, people got this—like I said I was responding to what was being presented to me. He was talking trash to me so I went right back out.

To me, it seemed like he was trying to say things to try to be hurtful to me. The fact of the matter is, you can't talk trash to me in trying to hurt my feelings and stuff because I can always hurt your feelings back. Unfortunately, I do have-- If you're throwing little jabs, I got big blows that I can throw at you. I can hurt you worse than you hurt me with your words.

Susan: From what I could really ascertain from the articles, it sounded to me like they were trying to make a statement that you didn't have a mental illness. I read it somewhere, "There was a doctor that said Nathan said, I'm going to ride this fake mental illness."

I thought, "that's really interesting," because it's pretty clear that mentally, you were not of your right mind in the moment even though there was, I think even through our conversations, some premeditation and that you said you were acting out about what you would do to your rivals and things.

Nathan: I didn't know I was hallucinating, delusional, or experiencing psychotic symptoms until I started coming down. It's like the last month I was there, that's when I realized, "Okay, I've been hallucinating. I have been delusional." I didn't say nothing to the doctors because I didn't want to be in the hospital. I didn't want to be in a state hospital. The doctors were always taking statements -- what I said or did, or whatever and try to make it sound like, "Okay, He's faking it," or whatever.

Like I said, I can't-- It's been so long since I've had these hearings where they specify specific things that I said. At no time, I can tell you for a fact, that when I got to the hospital, I did not want to be at the state hospital. I didn't want to be in the state hospital. I didn't believe I was mentally ill, so I wanted out of the state hospital. I remember telling them one time that, I think I said something along the lines, "I'm gonna play crazy," or whatever because I felt like if I say that, then that will make them get me out of the hospital. I was willing to do just about anything to get out of state hospital.

If saying that I was playing crazy was going to get me out of the hospital, "Okay, yes, I'm playing crazy. Let me out. If you guys keep me in the state hospital, then I'm going to kick your guys' ass every single chance I get.

Susan:I just want to reiterate that to make sure I'm understanding: In order to try and get out of the hospital, you were saying, "I'm pretending to be this way," because you were hoping that the doctors would then say, "He's pretending, get him out of the hospital."

Nathan:Yes.

Susan: When you were picked up after the Chuck. E Cheese, did you know what you had done? Were you aware when they were picking you up or were you still in the state of not being aware of what you had done?

Nathan: Mania does…it just changes, It does for me, it just changed my personality, so to speak. It changed my personality, plain and simple. That's what mania did. It didn't incapacitate me, it didn't-- I don't know how to explain it.

Susan: You weren't a werewolf where you…the moon comes out and you wake up in the morning and don't know that you were a werewolf. You understood.

Nathan: Right. What I did is very premeditated. Very premeditated. But it was pre-meditated and my behavior was based upon thinking… Thinking and emotions, or whatever, that normally isn't mine.

Susan: Right. I understand what you're saying now. I just wanted to clarify that. I'm just trying to wrap my head around it. How does one look in the mirror of one's self after something like that? Once you're down. Even though you have an understanding of, "I was in this other place, I did these things, and my normal self doesn't behave that way," but clearly it happened. How do you deal with the repercussions of that, in your own mind?

Nathan: Of course, when I come down, then I'm like, "Nathan, what did you just do?" I justified what I did. Again, it’s a part of your personality, this is your dark side. You have control over this. What happened was, after I came down, I was feeling bad about what I did. I had a conversation with myself, so to speak. Because, what made me take premeditated robbery (he made a mistake here, he meant murder not robbery)-- My personal belief is that you cannot commit premeditated murder and then feel bad about it afterward, because you already thought about it, so you can't feel bad about it.

Even though I was having these bad feelings about what I'd done, I basically said to myself, "No, you don't feel these emotions. Get rid of them." What helped me, so-to-speak, get rid of them, what helped me, I guess bury them [emotions], and not recognizing them was the fact that I was receiving so much hate and anger from people. When I was receiving this hate and anger from people, I was taking that and sort of feeding off of it.

It was like, "Okay, you hate me for what I did, well then your people deserve to die, then." Or, "It's good that I did that." That's how I deflected I guess you might say. Because I was feeling all this hate and anger, and in turn getting angry and everything like that, I never got the chance to deal with the remorse that you get. It was covered up.

Susan: That must be…the press that talks about, "Oh, he was mocking the families," because you were in a state of denial of your emotions, of the remorse. If I'm understanding you, correctly? If I was the victim's family, or anybody in the John Q public, to hear somebody say, "Oh well they deserved to die." I think that would probably constitute mocking behavior.

Nathan: I don't know what article you read, but it's been so long since my hearings and stuff. No, I've never mocked any of the victim's families. When I got sentenced, I know I went off in the courtroom, but that wasn't-- I've never mocked the victim's families, nothing like that. I know that people probably interpreted my actions and stuff in the wrong way, but no, I've never, ever mocked the victim's families.

Susan:Within the walls of the prison, what would you like to see changed?

Nathan: Oh, gosh. What do you mean, like living conditions and stuff? CDoC has probably started this normalization stuff (allowing inmates to wear their own clothes, doing their own laundry, getting inmates ready for society, that kind of thing), so for me, within the power of the Department of Corrections, where I'm at right now, the incentive unit where I’m at, is not up to par.

The living conditions are not up to par with the living conditions of general populations or other units in other facilities. For me, what I would like to see changed is get us up to par. Get us up to par with the rest of what's going on in other facilities. That's what I would like to see. Gosh, that's a real hard question to answer, because this is prison.

Susan:Yes, I get that.

Nathan: I love my freedom, you know, [laughs] I want to go home, a night pass or something. [laughs] I have to be reasonable, this is prison. There are certain liberties and stuff that have got to be taken, certain restrictions that have got to be taken. That’s just kind of a hard question to answer.

Susan: I know you want to go home, and again, this is a tough question, but do you think you deserve to go home?

Nathan: Do I deserve to go home? I can't say I deserve to go home, because the laws are the laws. I think there's something wrong with the laws, though. I was 19 years old at the time of my crime, and then on top of that, I was in the midst of a manic episode, I was mentally ill.

I committed a crime that I wouldn't have done had I not had a mental breakdown, so to speak. Getting sent to prison isn't supposed to be for punishment, it's supposed to be for rehabilitation and all that good stuff, so why not give me a chance to work my way out?

It isn't just for me, it's for other people too. I'm sure you've heard about the juvenile deals and all that stuff. Colorado used to sentence juveniles to life without parole. To prison.

Susan: Yes, I know.

Nathan: They changed it now, they give them an opportunity. They recognize that one, their brains aren't as developed as an adult, so they shouldn't be treated like adults, and they're giving them a chance to--

Susan: To get better.

Nathan: To get themselves, to get out. There's this guy here, he was in the military. He was part of this one unit that was really out there just doing their job, doing what they were trained to do. Plain and simple, he gets back here to the United States and they don't treat him. He's a veteran, and they don't retrain him to work within-- Do you know what I'm saying? They don't--

Susan: [crosstalk] Yes, it's a major problem.

Nathan: --And now he goes on and commits a crime, and now he got this big sentence. Where's the justice in that? Here's a guy that served our country, was trained to kill, was trained to do all these things. Then you bring him back here and just throw him in the mix.

It isn't just for me, I think they need-- This whole lock up people for the rest of their lives, without giving them a chance to get rehabilitated, giving them a chance to prove that they can actually go back to society and do something with themselves. I think it's totally messed up.

As far as my situation goes, yes, I think I deserve a chance. I wasn't a bad guy. Man, I wasn't a bad guy at all. I was doing a lot of the right things, and it's just when you include the mental illness in there, this undiagnosed mental illness, it just messed everything up. Not only for me but for lots of people's lives.

Susan: I had somebody on this show who was bipolar, and he said that when he would go into his manic episodes that he would end up in other states and have no idea even how he got there. He thought he was a spy, and that he had this mission to complete. He would travel from state to state, he had no recognition of getting there or anything like that. That's how far away he became from his brain.

Nathan: Like I said, it's, I don’t know.

Susan: Were you a drug user back then?

Nathan: A drug user? No, I can't say I was a drug user. I was a teenager, so I tried drinking alcohol, smoked some weed. I didn't like the taste of alcohol, so I didn't get involved in that. Like I said, I went to the parties, I drank, I smoked some weed, but not enough to say that I was a pothead. There was a lot of People (my friends) who were like, "We usually drink and we usually smoke." matter of fact, most of my friends, they wanted me to come and join them at the party because I would be the designated driver. [laughs] Because I didn't have that kind of a problem.

Susan: I really appreciate you talking with me, Nathan. The thing that I think is so fascinating is, I feel like so many people have this idea in their head, "Oh, well this person was capable of murdering four people, and therefore they're a monster." My argument is always, I think any of us are capable of doing anything. It's just a question of whether or not we do, or whether the circumstance, how we're raised, what we're around. Did we get abused, do we have a mental illness, do we have drug issues? There's so many factors.

You brought up such a good point, about the military guy who was trained to be a killer, which is sanctioned and made okay, and then brought back and put into a society, but not deprogrammed. There is a brainwashing that has to go on in order to create a killer because it's not necessarily-- You Know, we're raised, "Don't kill," don't do these things, don't be bad." But we all have that in us. The killer is in us already.

Nathan: It's a matter of control, but what's going to bring it out?

Susan: I think about this stuff all the time. I'm so fascinated by it.

Nathan: I had a job when I was 13 years old, and because I was doing like a little neighborhood-- You know, doing like clearing lawns, mowing lawns, stuff like that, because of that, I wound up getting a job when I was 14, and I started working at Burger King. I was doing the legal things. I was doing the right things. I'm not stupid, I was going to be an aeronautical engineer, so I was into computers. I wanted to do the right thing. I had the ability to do the right thing. I was doing the right thing. It's just, for whatever reason, whenever this mania flared up, it just did a different thing to me.

Susan: Well Nathan, thank you so much for being on the show. I really appreciate your time. I know that it's hard to navigate and all that, so thank you for making time for me.

Nathan: No problem. No problem, no problem at all. (outro music plays)

If you need anything, just let me know.

Susan: Thanks, Nathan.

Nathan: Take care. Bye-bye.

Susan: Bye.

End tag: Rate, review, and subscribe to Hey Human on iTunes or wherever you get your podcast. Thanks, Bye.

END OF AUDIO

Episode 52 - Rozana McGrattan: Street Girl and a Life Reclaimed

NOTE: Rozana has a heavy Brazilian accent and some of her English is truncated in places. Below is a word for word representation, however there are a few places where I used [brackets] to add a few words to make what she’s saying a little more clear.

Susan: Hi Rozana!

Rozana: Hi. You’re alright?

Susan: So, where are you exactly right now? You’re in London, or…?

Rozana: I’m in Hemel, Hempstead, it’s just about twenty-five miles from London.

Susan: Oh, Okay.

Rozana: It’s not the countryside, but it’s like, quiet and green.

Susan: Yes, nice, oh wow. Okay. Yeah. A little bit outside of the city?

Rozana: Yeah. Outside of the city. We have a very nice commercial city here, as well. So it’s not too bad.

Susan: That’s good. I lived in Cambridge when I was a little girl.

Rozana: Okay. Did you like there?

Susan: I loved it. Yeah.

Rozana: I’ve been to Cambridge twice but, yeah, it seems a nice place to live.

Susan: My dad was teaching there so we got to live there. I read your book. It’s great! It’s a page turner to say the least. Is this you on the cover?

Rozana: No. This is actually a model. I would’ve used my own photo if I had one. Basically, I never took a photo until I was twenty years old. When I was a child there were no cameras. Then, for a long time, I suffered from depression and I thought I was the ugliest human yet, so I never had the guts to take a photo myself.

Susan: I understand that. It’s a beautiful little girl on the cover.

Rozana: She’s gorgeous. Her name is Angelina.

Susan: She’s beautiful, absolutely. So, Street Girl – A Life of Hardship, Heroism and Hope. And this is your memoir?

Rozana: Yes.

Susan: When did you write this book?

Rozana: I started to write a few years ago, so then it was the end of 2013, beginning of 2014. Uh, it took basically two years to write the book and get it published but the project started about two years ago and launched the 9th of June, 2016. So it’s been out two or three months, now.

Susan: So, this book, this memoir, it starts with you as a little girl. You’re with your family in Brazil. Extreme poverty. And then your journey throughout your young and adult, early adult life…it is harsh. I mean your childhood was intense.

Rozana: It was really intense, yes. Uh, basically, as you can see by the book. And now after I’ve written the book, I’ve started to remember the things that are not bad because there’s just so much going on when I was a kid – when I was a little girl.

And I would say, because in the book, as you see toward the end, we say, I say, that my family came from being one of the poorest family to go and become one of the better off ones. But the funny thing is, because now, I think we have the “Channel Four” kind of interested in doing a documentary about the book and I was just saying they want to go to the village and if you see, it’s still extremely poor there.

Susan: Yes.

Rozana: But when I say, it’s a wealthy place now, it’s compared to what it was before, you know. If you compare it to what it was forty years ago when I was a kid, and now, you could say everyone is a millionaire there.

Not because they have millions, but it’s like, the style of life – how it’s moved on. But my daughter was saying to me, because we go to Brazil every year, she says “Mom, by British Standards or, like, the rest of the world, the First World, it’s still very poor.” And it’s true. But the kind of poverty we had back then, was the kind of poverty that for days, for three days, we wouldn’t have anything to eat.

Susan: Yes. And you said you had worms crawling out of your nose and there were a couple of points you almost died as a child. There was no doctor. There was no medicine.

Rozana: There was absolutely nothing. I actually remember something once. I was still really young, and again, it’s not in the book, but being in a rural area, we had lots of snakes in the countryside and my house had holes, like, one meter wide under the ground that came through the floor from the ground…

Susan: A meter-wide hole?

Rozana: Yeah. Like, big, big holes. And I remember once my mother – it was harvest time and they got all the corn and black beans we had to eat for over the year and they just put it in sacks and left on the side of our little kitchen.

When they moved it [the sacks] there was a family of snakes living underneath that, in our kitchen. Because anything could go [in]…every thirty feet was like that in the region. There was extra, extra poverty.

Susan: Yeah. Wow. Yesterday, I was thinking about how I wanted to ask you about your life without, I feel like I didn’t want to give away the book. The way you wrote it, it’s almost like…it’s almost like there are too many, what they call “spoiler alerts” and you don’t want to give away too much because, the journey…going through the journey with you is such an important part of the book, I feel like.

It’s very well written. So, I guess, really, I’m gonna put it on you to sort of talk about. You were suicidal many times in your life, lots of depression issues. Who wouldn’t be in that situation? You were on the streets – every kid around – there are children with you in your little gang – you’re all starving. Many are on drugs. Crime is intense.

It’s just…how do you survive something like that? You know we, in America, for example, we have extreme poverty here, as well, but I think it’s…anyone reading your book, Street Girl, is going to have their mind blown, because the difference is gargantuan.

Rozana: Yeah. That’s like I say. ‘Cause as we said, in America and here in Britain there is what they call Extreme Poverty, but to be honest, if… I think the kind of poverty I have lived [through] when I was a child is the only thing – you will know what it’s like if you had been there.

Not necessarily if you have been as poor as I was, but if you travel to the area and just see how kids are so skinny. So…you know, I mentioned in the book how I looked nine months pregnant, because I was bone and skin with this huge belly in front of me, with worms.

Of to the point, it’s a bit disgusting what I’m going to say…but going to the toilet and run away because the worms are crawling around you. And there was no toilet so everything was done open in the street.

Susan: Yes.

Rozana: And you’d go to do your physical needs and then the next thing, especially for a child, even that was scary because we’d be there and then all of a sudden see all those little worms just crawling around you. Tens of them. Sometimes it would just be worms coming out and nothing else.

So, you know, like I said, for some people this would be absolutely impossible to imagine but there is, I’m sure, this is still going on in many parts of the world, including Brazil. You know, our population, unfortunately, still, about 90 percent still live in extreme poverty, so…

Susan: 90 percent.

Rozana: Yes.

Susan: And here, I’ve seen pictures. I’ve never been to Brazil, and it looks beautiful in some places but there’s a particular image that I’ve seen and it’s these beautiful high rise condos and then, there’s a fence and on the other side of the fence is absolutely…

Rozana: Yes, absolutely. I think I’ve actually gotten a bit out of the subject because you were talking about how depressed I have been. And I think that is worse than being in poverty. Because, it is nothing for you to be a very poor kid and different from the worlds you considered rich or fortunate at the time.

But, in my opinion, the worst thing is, because us being poor, like many, I think these day what it can compare to is the poorest, too, but sometimes in the world it can be the black people, the gays, you know, anyone who is considered minority in the world.

Susan: Yes.

Rozana: It’s like you were inferior to the other people, you know what I mean?

Susan: Yes.

Rozana: And as a poor child, I just mention gays and blacks because unfortunately we see lots of races and some sort of pre-made mind about what’s normal and what’s not.

Susan: Yes.

Rozana: And when I was a child I always had big dreams and I wasn’t allowed to talk about it and they were big, and I believed in them. But I was the only one believing them -no one else would. Many comments about anything I said would be.

And like I said, the blacks would accept the black people, even though I am white as you see, the way people used to offend me, not that I felt offended, but to make me to look small, was to say, “A little black like you is never going to go anywhere.” You know because a little black kid, in their opinion, was offensive and it would just put me to the ground.

Susan: Right.

Rozana: You know what I mean? So, at the end of the day, in the beginning, I never let it get to me so much but after a while I just started to say, they’re right. Where am I going to go? I’ve nothing to eat, and though now they are white as you can see, my teeth were completely black.

Susan: Yes, I read in the book about how you went to the dental student and how painful it was, but your teeth were rotten out of your head, you had no dental care as a child.

Rozana: No, and there was no brush or anything. The first time I had a toothbrush, I was thirteen. That most of my teeth were broken, black and like, I do have nice teeth but they are not natural.

Susan: Right, sure. Sure.

Rozana: And when I finally went to the dentist they – there was not much they could do. They just did what they had to do, so, one of those things.

Susan: Yes.

Rozana: But, I also think depression had really kicked in when I became a teenager. I have a teenager daughter, and I think being a teenager is a painful thing as it is.

Susan: Ha. Yes.

Rozana: That phase in their life is, even when they have everything. Now, being a teenager, people put you down all the time, you have no perspective of the future, so that just, you know, it just made me so sad.

Susan: You know, I have to say, I found it so fascinating while reading this, that here’s this, you, this little girl, in the world possible situations, I mean, you know, nearly dying a handful of times, molestation, you know, family members dying, best friends dying, all this stuff, this little girl having to endure and yes, being depressed, who wouldn’t be, by the way, and yet, there was still this FIRE in you.

You still, the chances you took, you were like, Oh, I’m just gonna get on this bus and go here, or I’m gonna walk through this door or that door, and a lot of times, to serious upheaval. I mean, you were basically an indentured slave for a time in your life and yet, no matter what, you just kept going. I find that, I mean, jeez man, I’m very impressed by your tenacity and your sense of spirit. It chokes me up, I mean…it’s incredible.

I don’t know how you did it. I try to. You read this and I’m like, would I have been like that? Would I have just kept going, I’m pretty firery, but who knows??!!! You know?

Rozana: Do you know what I always say? I think we, as human beings, that’s not just me personally, we all have something really strong inside us. And to be fair, I haven’t yet found in me what is my strongest thing, what is the strongest part of my soul. But I do know, up to now, I believe that I had a very strong mission in the world. And to be honest, like I said, I haven’t yet found what it is exactly, what I’m expected to do. Or what I want to do yet.

I believe, somehow, I came into the world to change something. When I was in extreme depression, there were days that I wouldn’t want to get up out of the bed and there were days all I wanted to do was to die. I tried a few times. But there was always – there were two voices – one telling me how worthless, how unimportant I was, how I should just kill myself. But then there was always a very little voice always saying to me, “Don’t give up. You must carry on. You must go on because there is something amazing that’s going to happen.”

And then sometimes I would give up things for a week and then a little light would come on and say something good and then something would happen and I would get depressed again and that would go on for years. Because I could get really depressed and put my projects behind me, then in that moment of light I would think, “You are so strong, why did you stop? Why did you have to hear that stupid voice in your head – here is what you know is right.” You know, “Follow your faith, follow your soul, you know who you are.” And then one day I just said to myself, you either get one step ahead and turn back, or you hold on to your faith, wherever you are, whatever you’re doing and stick there. You don’t have to go forward on that day, but just don’t go backward either, because otherwise, you’re always going to go back. You’re always going to go back and you’re never going to achieve anything.

And I just, I just thought to myself, that I was in a vicious circle. You know, one step forward I’d turn back. And then once I had learned to take control of my destiny and just hear what is in this for me. What I want to believe and what I had to believe like we all should. That we are wonderful, we are beautiful in our own way. You know, and if you believe you came here to be a winner, no matter how many times people are going to say you are a loser, you are meant to be a winner. And it’s up to you.

You know, you know what it’s like being an athlete? You can have a very thin leg, a very thin arm, you’re so skinny and you’re never going to be a strong athlete. But if you keep trying and training and never give up, there’s no other way and you’re going to get better eventually.

And I suppose, that’s why, I held onto my faith. I think that’s what it was. And it’s easy to lose your faith. I don’t blame anyone who does that, because, you have got to be a strong soul. You have got to have a strong belief. And I think my faith is what brought me right here, talking to you now, you know?

Susan: Sure.

Rozana: I am here.

Susan: So, at one point in the story, without giving away too much, you get abducted by a very horrible human being, and kept against your will for an amount of time, and very bad things happened.

And, I kept thinking, as I was reading that, and the whole time you’re trying to figure out how to get out of there, and I just thought, man, what more could happen to this poor woman?! You really, I mean, when you were in that moment, you mentioned something about how, you know, you had tried to die a couple times, and then in this moment your will to live was so strong in order to get you to escape.

Rozana: Yeah.

Susan: I mean while you were in it, did you think you were going to be able to get out?

Rozana: I, like I said, I came to a point in my life and thankfully, I think once the time came, when that happened, I was older then, even though I was still depressed. Before I went there [held captive], I still wanted to die, but I came to realize I never REALLY wanted to die, you know. I think what I really wanted was to have, I wanted to be love, like all [people] do.

And I didn’t feel that love ever. And how I know that is because when I was there I kept thinking to myself, “Okay, I wanted to die, but did I really?” No, because if I died here, no one would know about my death. Because what I really wanted was to test people’s love for me.

I wanted to see if anyone would suffer to know that [I died], but I wouldn’t know it because I would be dead. But if I died here, what would be the purpose of my life? Why did I go through so much to, you know, to die here in this flat, and away and no one would ever know I died?

Susan: Do you think that guy was a serial killer? I mean, I think he was a serial killer.

Rozana: I, I have never found this out for sure, but, I believe so for everything I had seen there. And again, I didn’t understand this at the time. And again, you’d probably have to go through that circle in life when seems like everything to happen in your life is bad but you don’t understand [that] you are what attracts those things to you.

Susan: Oh, yes, I understand what you’re saying. Yes.

Rozana: So, it’s like, how can so many things bad happen to that person? Or, how could someone be so lucky that everything seems right? Because I feel like now, it’s amazing how, once you change your frame of mind, everything starts to change around you. And I suppose people can tell how you are feeling, how you are dealing with things.

Susan: And you draw those people to you, whether they’re negative or positive.

Rozana: You do, and unfortunately, I think most people of the world don’t know the power of the mind. And how you circulate whatever you want in your circle.

Susan: Yes

Rozana: You’re not consciously doing this. But that’s exactly what happens. And I say these things because throughout my life actually I wanted things and I knew I could get them. I knew I had the potential to do so, right? But, as I was saying, with, I wouldn’t even say success, even though I consider myself very successful, I would explain to you, to be successful to me these days is completely different than what it was in the past.

But to me to be successful is to able to smile, to be happy, to have my friends like I told you, in the garden, to have a little barbeque, which I’m not even paying for because someone brought the meat. It’s not money at all, it’s not a mansion, it’s not expensive cars, to be successful is to be happy.

Susan: I agree.

Rozana: Before, I had this idea of being successful right? And I was always looking for the wrong things. That was the thing, and material things take longer to get and it’s very easy to lose them just like that, right? But even to keep anything material you have to work extremely, extremely hard.

So, I never really took responsibility for my life because, for me, it was a lot easier to say to people, when they said to me, “Why are you not studying? Why can you not read or write?” (or) “Oh, because I was very poor, I was born in poverty. Then I was a slave for three years and then I was raped.” I think it’s quite easy for you to get in the circle to make yourself look like a victim. Because, while you are blaming your problems to the world you have no responsibility to them, you don’t have to do anything. Right?

Susan: Right.

Rozana: And I think that was because I liked that people thinking I was this poor thing, even though no one ever did because, inside my own limitation, I had to always be one step ahead of other people.

Susan: Yes.

Rozana: While there were people in the same situation as me, that [same] poverty we were born in, you know, well, I moved and I tried to do some things. And I moved to San Palo, but it seemed like nothing was enough. I always wanted more and more and more. Right? Then why did I keep going back [to the past]?

Because, like I said, it always came to a point where committing suicide was not the answer. You know, to make my mom proud was not to commit suicide. And even if the suicide happened to be, let’s say, what they say A LOT – where you’d be in a magazine or on the front cover kind of thing. I could’ve made a very big suicide and be on the cover of a magazine – but what would that do to make my mother proud. You know what I mean?

Susan: I do know what you mean, yes.

Rozana: If I really want to make her proud, I need to go and show her I can write my name. I can write her a letter, say “Look I have studied.” I can do those things and also, another thing apart from my faith and being strong and being able to do things, was the fact that I had to make my mom proud.

I left her home to say I was [going to make her proud] and I couldn’t let her down. Not me. Anyone could but not me. Oh, and also, before I was kidnapped, going back to the beginning of your question, when I was kidnapped, up to that so many things had happened to me anyway. And I say this now, you can go to college, you can read a thousand books, but nothing else can teach you more than life, than being there.

Susan: Yes.

Rozana: And I think the knowledge that I had of being a slave or living with Rachel, the lady with the sexual problems who was a little bit crazy, or that I lived on the streets and lived with a public toilet – everything came to my aid when I was kidnapped. Because I kind of knew, from other people I met, that, the guy, he was not a normal human being like you and me. He had some issues and that was very clear to me.

So, I either had to play his game, or I would be a dead woman. And I made my choice. And once I had made my choice then I just stuck to it and whatever I had to do I would do. But I would come out of here alive. And I knew, once I got out I’d be a stronger woman and capable of anything or everything.

Susan: Yes. That’s quite a way to look at it. And your talking about making your mother proud, but ultimately, I think your journey is about making yourself proud. For yourself.

Rozana: It definitely is, yeah. Everything I do in life, and like now for example, because, like I said, I think my mission in life, is to help other people. I don’t know how. I don’t know how and that’s something that really bothers me.

Susan: Well, I mean, your book will help help people.

Rozana: Do you think so?

Susan: I really do. I mean, I think, I hope that many, many, many people read this book. Because, I think we are all you. All of us. We may not have had so many of the extreme situations, but we are certainly all you.

Do you know what I mean? In that – in that your fight, your tenacity, and your ability to keep on pushing through will teach many of us to not give up. I mean, that’s a huge blessing to the world for anyone who reads that.

Rozana: It’s good – what you are saying to me – [it] has been said by a few people who’ve read the book. And it really makes me happy because, I always say, even if I don’t make a penny from this book, the whole purpose of writing the book in the first place was to show people no matter where you come from, what matters less of where you are going to go, is how you got there. Provided you are not hurting anyone, you’re not harming yourself in any way.

We should take care of ourselves, as well. And I know I hurt myself sometimes, right, but I didn’t know any better. And at the end of the day, I came out, apart from some little scars here and there, I got where I wanted to be. And uh, with the depression, for example, I try, I don’t remember if I say this in the book, or not, but what I found about depression: You want to die. You want to die and no matter what you’re doing you get used to that.

And when you see yourself out of the depression for a little bit, you feel so uncomfortable, you feel so strange. You know, if you are happy for a while, it’s almost like you don’t allow yourself to be happy because you don’t see the point. Because when you are depressed and you get out of the little bubble, it’s scary. It’s being in that room with lions.

A moment of happiness is scary, okay. But then, once you reach a Happiness, like I am now, I’m so happy. When I think about where I have been, I don’t want to be there. And people who suffer, they’ve got to understand this part…you know depression is like a prison.

You’re a prisoner in your own mind, in your own body. And you believe that it’s the normal. And it’s really not. When I wrote the book I was trying to make people understand this…with the sexual abuse, when you are abused by a guy, or whatever kind, it was my case, but I know there are lots of, all kind of abuse, you think it’s normal. Oh no, he did this or she did this it’s because I deserve it, because I did something wrong or because I’m a bad person.

It’s not your fault. That they’re doing bad because you’re bad. That’s how you see it. No. It’s not. And don’t be bashful. Talk about it. No one deserves to be raped. We came into the world naked. Even if you’re walking the street naked you are doing that for whatever reason, but certainly not to be naked because sex is what you want. Do you know what I mean? And you’re not asking for it.

Susan: Yes. Yes. And rape is not about sex, of course, it’s about control and violence.

Rozana: Exactly. And like I said, since I wrote the book, I keep remembering things about people in the past, about things that happened to me. And there is a guy, the one who abused me when I was eleven years old.

Susan: Yes.

Rozana: I went to Brazil last year and, as you know, he’s married to my sister now.

Susan: Yes.

Rozana: And then he was telling me that when his son, my nephew, turned twelve, he took him to have sex with a prostitute.

Susan: Whoa.

Rozana: It’s…At twelve years old! Yes, that is what men did. “You know you are a man! You’ve got to man up when you are twelve.” And, my son is twelve. And the other day I was watching, sitting and he just kinda came and sat in my lap and he said, mama I need a hug, in that little boy way of his.

And then that’s why I was thinking about it. I was just imagining my twelve-year-old son, taking him to this room with a grown-woman who are professional sex [workers] and he’s forced to have sex with them.

Susan: I think that’s child abuse. I think that’s absolutely child abuse.

Rozana: It is. But that’s what I mean. His family would do that to him. His own father did that to him, to this guy. His own father did it and now he’s done it to his son. And most probably, his son is going to do that, too. You know what I mean?

Susan: I do know what you mean.

Rozana: It’s really hard.

Susan: I’m curious, did you ever…did you now that you’re a grown up person, have you said to him…did you say to him, uh, “Hey, you did this to me when I was a child and…” Did you bring it up at all?

Rozana: I did and he said, “That never happened.”

Susan: He denied it.

Rozana: He denied it, yes.

Susan: Yuck.

Rozana: He denied it.

Susan: Classic.

Rozana: Yeah. No, he denied it and said, “No, it’s all in your head, I don’t remember anything.”

Susan: When you were abducted and raped and you escaped and you said you didn’t go to the police because who would believe you, because you were poor, you’re a woman, all this stuff. Now that you’re a woman of means and you have the self-confidence and all that, do you ever think about when you’re back in Brazil, leading police to where that guy might be or trying to catch him? Or?

Rozana: I would not. No I would not for a few reasons. First of all, because I don’t have a clue where that guy is. I don’t know his real [name]. I don’t know his surname, anyway. But I don’t even know if the name he gave me is his real name.

Susan: And you don’t remember how to get back there, probably.

Rozana: I don’t. I don’t have a clue.

Susan: ‘Cause you were drugged.

Rozana: Yes. And when I left I ran so fast, from the next day I wouldn’t be able to go back there.

Susan: Yes.

Rozana: But also, the police in Brazil, most of them are pretty corrupt and of course, I don’t like to generalize because I’m sure there are great men with the police corporation, but you never know who is the corrupt and who is the good police officers.

Susan: Yes.

Rozana: And just the fact that you go there and accuse, you can accuse one of them and bring some anger in them. So some things – I think the art of the life as well is to be able to leave the past in the past sometimes.

Susan: Yes.

Rozana: You know, because I think while you keep thinking about revenge for [the crime]. In my opinion, happiness is the secret of happiness. That feeling of forgiving. Because you know, if you’re able to understand why people do something, because, even that guy like you said, I’m sure he killed so many people like I think he had, raped so many people and kept them prisoner, I don’t think he ever, you know, in his “real human being” was thinking when he was a baby or when he was playing with his little toys, he wasn’t thinking, “Oh, when I grow up that’s what I’m going to do.” Something on the way has happened.

Susan: Right.

Rozana: Or in his dreams makes him or something makes him do it.

Susan: Yes.

Rozana: For him to think, “That’s it, I want to hurt someone.” And I know some of them do, all they think about is hurting someone, but I’m sure as a baby he wasn’t made to be like that. Something happened and made him like that.

Susan: Yes, it’s hard to remember that, that is the case in many of these people that something, some event, caused it. Like for example, you were talking about your brother-in-law taking his son to have sex at twelve is insane to me.

Rozana: It’s disgusting.

Susan: Yeah.

Rozana: Absolutely disgusting. But how can you say to someone…it’s like, as I see, right, how can I tell a lion, don’t go kill a zebra because you are hurting the zebra. You know what I mean?

Susan: I do know what you mean, yes.

Rozana: In there mind, I think is, I think is, I’m just doing this some comparison because in their mind they have to do it. They have to.

Susan: Yes. It’s compulsion.

Rozana: Yes. Compulsion. They have to do it.

Susan: So, off of that subject, which is a subject I could talk about for a very long time, one thing about when you were telling the story, and I’m probably going to pronounce this wrong, the Curidero. So, the medicine man that you went to see, and I want to ask about the single note you heard. The musical note to me, that was like, angels or God or whatever calling to you to bring you into the woods.

When, you know, when you were very sick you were taken to this medicine man. You were poisoned by the water and you went to see the medicine man and he helped you. But then you found him again on your own. You were a little girl, and that single note you heard. And you talked about it later in the book that you heard that note again.

Rozana: I did.

Susan: Yeah.

Rozana: Those notes are still very clear in my head.

Susan: Yeah.

Rozana: And some days, that’s something really funny that happens with me, right? Being a human, you know, you can have, with a life, you can have a house. You can have a job. Nowadays, you still feel a little down for one reason or another, hormones or stress or whatever you go with and nowadays if you’re really stressed…

Susan: Yeah.

Rozana: I don’t suffer from depression for years now, but every now and then I feel a bit down. But there’s something really funny that happens when I go to sleep, I sleep and then the next day some flash comes to my mind, which I don’t know if it’s a dream, I don’t know if I’ve been to a place, I don’t know if the angels came into my room, but I do hear musical notes and I have flashbacks of a place I haven’t been without having been and it brings so much happiness to my soul.

Susan: Gives me the shivers.

Rozana: No, but it’s the truth.

Susan: Yeah, I know, I love it.

Rozana: And then I just want more of that experience. But it’s just like those things telling me that you’ve got to carry on, that you’ve just got to go home and looking up that there’s no reason to be sad.

And it’s really impressive because any time that I’m down, or whatever it is, it does happen, musical note, something that flashes in my eyes is, I don’t know, like stars and static is going through my bones. It’s a really nice experience. I don’t know if everyone has that, but that happens a lot [to me].

Susan: I think it’s beautiful and I think it shows that you are absolutely meant to be on this planet and that all of your experiences led you to now be a voice for so many and say, you know what, happiness does come from within, and you can achieve that, you can have that and it’s such a beautiful message. I loved the book and I think you’re awesome. I really do. I think you’re incredible. I’m glad you’re on the planet. I’m glad you stuck around.

Rozana: Thank you, Susan.

Susan: And I’m excited because I feel like, because of your experiences, your children will help the world as well. They can’t help but do that because they have you as a mom. You know?

Rozana: Yeah. I do hope so. Thank you. Thank you for the very beautiful words you just said.

Susan: Well, it’s true. It’s so true. I want everyone to read this book. I’m going to put links on Hey Human podcast so that people can find it. Oh, mention: You have two businesses, now. I’d like to promote those as well. I’d like to put those on the website.

Rozana: Just put, The Right Option Cleaning, because my daughter has been ill the past year so I had to sell the catering business off. I sold the business to a friend of mine.

Susan: Your daughter is ok? Is she alright?

Rozana: Well, yes, now we know what’s wrong with her.

Susan: Okay.

Rozana: She’s not well, we didn’t know what it was until she had the diagnosed.

Susan: But now she’s diagnosed.

Rozana: Yes.

Susan: It’s always something, isn’t it?

Rozana: Yeah.

Susan: Life is never easy. Thank you so much for your time,

Rozana, I really, really appreciate it.

Rozana: Thank you. Thank you for supporting me. Thank you for giving me the chance. And it was lovely to meet you. And just say, I’d like you to put that “Life is not too easy but life is worth it.” Susan: Amen to that. Absolutely. Rozana: I leave you now.

Susan: Thank you so much.

Rozana: Thank you.

END OF AUDIO